Beneath the Wolf's Shadow

Joe Rogan Experience #2488: "Hamas, Gaza, and the Ethics of War" Guest: Norman Finkelstein [Opening Jingle Plays] Joe Rogan: "What's up, freaks? Welcome to the Joe Rogan Experience. Today’s episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens—get all your greens in one scoop—and by Onnit, keeping your body and mind optimized. Go to Onnit.com/JRE for 10% off everything from kettlebells to brain supplements. Alright, folks, today's gonna be... something. We’ve got a guest who’s not afraid to go where most won’t—Norman Finkelstein. Norman is an author, political scientist, and a guy who has been pissing people off for decades with his takes on Israel, Palestine, and U.S. foreign policy. Some of you will agree with him, some of you will be furious, and that’s the beauty of this show. Let’s dive in. Norman, welcome to the podcast." Norman Finkelstein: "Thank you for having me, Joe. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss such a critical issue." Segment 1: The Gaza Offensive Joe Rogan: "Let’s just jump right into it. Right now, Israel’s about to launch what they’re calling their final offensive in Gaza. They’re saying this is going to ‘end Hamas for good.’ What’s your take?" Norman Finkelstein: "Well, Joe, it’s complicated. Hamas, for all its flaws—and let’s not sugarcoat it, there are many—is both a militant group and, for many Palestinians, a symbol of resistance. Israel’s strategy, on the other hand, is essentially scorched earth. They aim to obliterate Hamas, but the human cost will be catastrophic. The question we have to ask is, does this level of destruction, including the deaths of thousands of civilians, justify the goal?" Joe Rogan: "Yeah, but isn’t that kind of the nature of war? I mean, Israel’s dealing with a group that hides behind civilians, fires rockets, and uses human shields. What are they supposed to do?" Norman Finkelstein: "They have every right to defend themselves. That’s not the issue. The issue is proportionality. International law makes it clear: you can defend yourself, but not at the cost of wholesale slaughter. What’s happening now isn’t just defense; it’s punitive, and the ordinary people of Gaza are paying the price." Segment 2: Ethics of War Joe Rogan: "You mentioned proportionality. I want to ask—where do you draw the line? If you’re Israel and you’re dealing with an enemy that’s literally in the middle of civilians, do you just let them keep attacking you?" Norman Finkelstein: "War is never clean, but the principles of proportionality and distinction exist for a reason. You target combatants, not schools, not hospitals. The argument that Hamas hides among civilians doesn’t absolve Israel of its responsibility to minimize civilian casualties. What we’re seeing isn’t just ‘collateral damage.’ It’s collective punishment." Joe Rogan: "But, Norman, let me push back. You’re sitting here, safe in New York or wherever. If your kids were living under the threat of rockets, wouldn’t you want your government to do whatever it takes?" Norman Finkelstein: "Of course. But if my government was bombing entire neighborhoods, killing thousands of kids to stop those rockets, I’d have to ask, ‘Is this really keeping us safe, or is it sowing the seeds for more violence down the road?’ That’s the moral dilemma Israel refuses to face." Segment 3: Hamas as a Governing Entity Joe Rogan: "Let’s talk about Hamas. They’re not just a terror group; they run Gaza. So how do you deal with an enemy that’s also the government?" Norman Finkelstein: "It’s tricky, no doubt. Hamas has two faces: the militants and the administrators. Their governance is riddled with corruption and authoritarianism, but for many in Gaza, they’re also the only ones standing up to Israel. They’re flawed, but their appeal lies in their resistance to occupation. You can bomb them into the Stone Age, but you can’t bomb the idea of resistance out of the Palestinian people." Joe Rogan: "Yeah, but resistance through violence... doesn’t that just perpetuate the cycle?" Norman Finkelstein: "It does, which is why the international community has to step in. But let’s not forget: Hamas exists in part because the political process was crushed. When you close every door to peaceful solutions, what do you expect people to do? Roll over?" Segment 4: U.S. Involvement and Media Narratives Joe Rogan: "Okay, let’s bring it home. The U.S. backs Israel with billions of dollars. Does that make us complicit in what’s happening?" Norman Finkelstein: "Absolutely. Every bomb dropped on Gaza has ‘Made in the USA’ written on it. We fund this war, we arm it, and we shield Israel diplomatically. The bloodshed isn’t happening in a vacuum; it’s happening with our tacit approval." Joe Rogan: "But, to play devil’s advocate, isn’t that part of our alliance? Israel’s our closest ally in the region, right?" Norman Finkelstein: "An ally doesn’t mean a blank check. The U.S. has leverage, and we could use it to push for peace. Instead, we enable actions that violate basic human rights and destabilize the region further." Segment 5: The Human Cost Joe Rogan: "Let’s talk about the people. Civilians are getting caught in the crossfire—kids, families. How do you even begin to stop that?" Norman Finkelstein: "By demanding accountability. Israel has a responsibility to avoid targeting civilians, and Hamas has a responsibility not to use them as shields. But let’s be clear: Gaza is an open-air prison. People have nowhere to go. When bombs start falling, they’re sitting ducks." Joe Rogan: "Yeah, I can’t even imagine living like that. But doesn’t that mean Hamas is failing its own people too?" Norman Finkelstein: "Undoubtedly. Hamas’s tactics put civilians at risk. But their failures don’t absolve Israel or the U.S. of responsibility. When you have overwhelming power, you bear the greater moral burden." Closing Thoughts Joe Rogan: "Man, this is heavy stuff. Norman, I’ve gotta say, whether people agree with you or not, you’ve given us a lot to think about. What’s the takeaway here?" Norman Finkelstein: "The takeaway is simple: war dehumanizes us all. If we don’t start holding everyone accountable—Hamas, Israel, the U.S., everyone—then this cycle of violence will never end." Joe Rogan: "Alright, Norman Finkelstein, everybody. Thanks for coming on, man. This was intense but important." Norman Finkelstein: "Thank you, Joe. I appreciate the platform."

The Rest is History Podcast: "The End of Hamas?" [Intro Music Plays] Host 1 (Tom Holland): Hello and welcome to The Rest is History, where we dig into the past to understand today’s most pressing headlines. I’m Tom Holland. Host 2 (Dominic Sandbrook): And I’m Dominic Sandbrook. Today, we’re turning our attention to the Middle East, where Israel is preparing what it calls its “final offensive” in Gaza. Hamas, the militant group that has controlled Gaza since 2007, is reportedly on the brink of collapse. Tom, this is a moment charged with historical weight, isn’t it? Tom: It absolutely is, Dominic. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is often seen as one of the defining geopolitical struggles of the modern era, with roots that stretch back to biblical times. But today, we’re going to focus on a more contemporary lens—how past military offensives and peace efforts have shaped the current moment, and what history tells us about the likelihood of Israel truly eradicating Hamas. Dominic: We’ve heard this rhetoric before, haven’t we? “The final battle,” “permanent resolution,” these are phrases that have been used countless times. In 2009, during Operation Cast Lead, and again in 2014 with Operation Protective Edge, Israel launched major offensives in Gaza with similar goals—weakening Hamas and restoring security. Yet, here we are again. Segment 1: Historical Context Tom: Let’s start with some context. Hamas emerged in the late 1980s during the First Intifada, or Palestinian uprising. It was initially supported by Israel as a counterweight to the secular Fatah movement. Yes, Dominic, that’s one of history’s little ironies. Dominic (chuckling): Indeed, Tom. It’s a classic case of unintended consequences. Israel thought that by backing an Islamist movement, they could undermine the influence of Yasser Arafat and his Palestinian Liberation Organization. Instead, they helped create a far more radical and uncompromising adversary. Tom: Hamas quickly gained popularity, particularly in Gaza, through a mix of militant resistance to Israel and social services for Palestinians. By the time they won the 2006 elections and took full control of Gaza in 2007, Hamas had become the de facto government in the territory. Dominic: And that’s when the cycle of conflict we know today really began. Israel imposed a blockade on Gaza, and Hamas responded with rocket fire. This led to the kind of asymmetric warfare that has characterized the conflict ever since—Israel with its military might and Hamas using guerilla tactics and human shields. Segment 2: The Military Dimension Dominic: Now, let’s talk about Israel’s strategy. Tom, do you think this “final offensive” can truly end Hamas’s presence in Gaza? Tom: History would suggest otherwise, Dominic. Decapitating a militant group like Hamas—removing its leadership and infrastructure—is one thing. But eradicating its ideology, its support base, is an entirely different challenge. Take the examples of the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka or the IRA in Northern Ireland. Both were eventually defeated militarily, but their causes lived on in various forms. Dominic: It’s also worth noting that Hamas is deeply embedded in Gaza’s society. They’re not just fighters; they run schools, hospitals, and charities. This gives them a level of legitimacy and support that’s hard to dismantle with bombs and bullets. Tom: Exactly. And even if Hamas is militarily defeated, other groups like Palestinian Islamic Jihad could step into the vacuum. Or worse, the power vacuum could lead to total chaos, as we’ve seen in Libya or post-Saddam Iraq. Segment 3: The Humanitarian and International Implications Dominic: Of course, the humanitarian toll of this offensive cannot be ignored. Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world, and every military strike risks civilian casualties. Historically, how has this shaped international opinion? Tom: Well, Dominic, Israel has always walked a tightrope in terms of global perception. On one hand, its right to defend itself against rocket attacks is widely acknowledged. On the other, images of civilian suffering often turn public opinion against it. This has been a recurring theme since at least the 1982 Lebanon War. Dominic: And what about the role of external powers? The U.S. has historically been Israel’s staunchest ally, but in recent years we’ve seen a more complex dynamic. Presidents Biden, Allred, and Van Horn’s administration have generally been supportive but have also emphasized the need for restraint. Tom: Yes, and then there’s the elephant in the room: the Arab world. While many Arab states have normalized relations with Israel in recent years, their populations remain deeply sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. A prolonged or especially bloody offensive could strain these new alliances. Segment 4: What Comes Next? Dominic: So, Tom, what does history tell us about the likely aftermath of this offensive? Tom: If we look at past Israeli operations, we can expect a few things. First, Hamas will likely survive in some form, even if only as a shadow of its former self. Second, there will be calls for reconstruction in Gaza, with international donors stepping in to rebuild what was destroyed. And third, we’re likely to see renewed calls for a two-state solution, even if that seems as elusive as ever. Dominic: And let’s not forget the long-term psychological toll. For every militant killed, there’s the risk of creating new generations of resentment and hostility. As one Israeli general once put it, “You can’t bomb an ideology.” Closing Thoughts Tom: Dominic, it’s clear that while this offensive may mark a turning point, it’s unlikely to be the end of the story. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has defied resolution for decades, and this chapter, like so many before it, will likely leave a legacy of both hope and heartbreak. Dominic: Absolutely, Tom. As historians, we can only hope that future generations will look back on this moment not as another missed opportunity, but as a step toward lasting peace. Tom: And on that cautiously optimistic note, thank you for joining us on The Rest is History. If you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We’ll see you next time. [Outro Music Plays]

IDF Prepares Final Gaza Offensive, Aiming to End Hamas Rule The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) are mobilizing for what Israeli officials are calling a “final offensive” to dismantle Hamas's control of Gaza. Following years of relentless conflict and the devastating toll of Hamas's actions on both Israeli and Palestinian civilians, this operation is being positioned as the decisive effort to ensure long-term peace and security for Israel and its people. A Strategic Operation According to sources close to Israeli Prime Minister Benny Gantz, the offensive will focus on targeting the remaining Hamas strongholds and dismantling the group’s infrastructure. Israeli intelligence estimates that Hamas has approximately 16,000 fighters left in Gaza, with 3,500 classified as “elite” troops. However, recent IDF operations have depleted Hamas’s resources, leaving the group disorganized and leaderless. The death of Mohammed Sinwar, brother of top Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar, at the hands of Israeli special forces, has further disrupted Hamas's leadership structure. Israeli officials believe that without organized leadership, Hamas’s forces will be unable to sustain prolonged resistance. “This is not just about defeating a terrorist organization; this is about ensuring that Hamas never again poses a threat to the people of Israel or the broader region,” an Israeli defense official told Fox News on condition of anonymity. Swift and Decisive Action The final assault is expected to unfold rapidly, with military experts predicting that Israel’s overwhelming firepower and precise targeting will bring the operation to a close within days. “The IDF has honed its tactics over years of counterterrorism operations,” said Colonel Avi Rabinovich, a retired Israeli military strategist. “This operation is designed to permanently eliminate Hamas’s ability to wage war.” Israel’s approach is rooted in its determination to protect its citizens from the constant threat of rocket attacks and terror operations orchestrated by Hamas. The group’s indiscriminate attacks have killed and injured countless Israelis, while its mismanagement and corruption have left Gaza’s civilian population in dire conditions. Humanitarian Concerns Despite Israel’s efforts to minimize civilian casualties through targeted strikes and warnings, the humanitarian impact on Gaza remains a significant concern. Hamas’s strategy of embedding its fighters and infrastructure within civilian areas has exacerbated the risk to non-combatants. United States Senator John Carlson (D-MN) wrote on social media: "I support the eradication of Hamas. But so far, the ordinary people of Gaza have suffered a horrific ordeal from Israel's military actions there. What is being done to protect children, for example? How many more will die in this latest offensive?" Israeli officials have reiterated that their fight is with Hamas, not the people of Gaza. “We are doing everything possible to protect innocent lives while achieving our military objectives,” said a spokesperson for the IDF. Global Reactions The international community has been closely monitoring the escalating situation. While the United States and other allies have expressed support for Israel’s right to self-defense, some humanitarian organizations have called for restraint. Israeli Prime Minister Benny Gantz has emphasized that this operation is necessary for lasting peace in the region. “Hamas has brought nothing but destruction to Gaza and terror to Israel. We owe it to our people—and to the future of Gaza—to end this cycle of violence,” Gantz said in a statement. Looking Ahead The anticipated success of this offensive could mark the end of Hamas’s reign in Gaza and open the door to new possibilities for the region. Israeli leaders have signaled a willingness to work with international partners to stabilize Gaza and provide humanitarian aid once the fighting ends. While the path forward remains uncertain, one thing is clear: Israel is determined to ensure that Hamas never again threatens its sovereignty or the safety of its people. As the IDF prepares to take decisive action, the world watches to see whether this operation will bring an end to years of bloodshed and pave the way for a more stable future. ((Players mentioned: @Indie Voter))